[Xastir-Dev] Messaging interface...]

[Gerry Creager N5JXS]

Mark - N2PGD wrote:
> Gerry,
> 
> 
>>If we're talking about real messaging, a pop-up isn't bad.  That said, 
>>I'd LOVE to be able to set the DND bit so I can deny the messages until 
>>I want to be messed with again.
> 
> 
> Personally, I disagree.  I think the popups, at least in their current
> state, are nothing but an annoyance.  They always seem to get in the way
> when I'm trying to do something else.  I end up sending a message and
> then dragging the resulting window off to another virtual screen so it's
> out of my way.  I wouldn't be against a small indicator saying you got a
> new message or something, but I don't see the need for a big popup
> window.

'DND bit' == Do Not Disturb... The pop-ups usually drive me nuts.  The 
rest of the time they're merely a major annoyance.  There are a few 
times where they'd be useful to me, but I'd like to be able to block 
'em.  We're in violent agreement.

>>I like the idea of filtering, but if you're getting files from a TNC, 
>>you can always set the lidlist in it to block the bozo's.  Then again, 
>>being able to set that filter in the program would be a benefit, too.
> 
> 
> "getting files from the TNC"???  The message interface for APRS does not
> make use of the TNC bbs, is this what you are talking about?  I don't
> see how the lidlist will help.  I was talking about the ability to sort
> and filter the archived messages.

Fumble fingering and brain-cramp on my part.  Not well understood: 
There's no reason I can't lidlist the bozo if I'm hearing him via RF, 
but then again, being able to lidlist someone from within the interface 
(xastir) is also a reasonable thing.

>>Despite what Bob Bruninga has postulated, APRS is not suitable for ECOM 
>>message handling.  It's a short message system designed and most 
>>appropriate for short status and keyboard chat operations.  If it's 
>>important enough to send as a real ECOM message, we need to revisit the 
>>mechanism.
> 
> 
> Regardless of it's orginal intent, I do see APRS being useful for ECOM
> situations.  We have successfully used APRS in many public service
> events and it saves a lot of time to use the text messaging rather than
> try to send the information over voice.  What I really believe an ECOM
> situation needs is smart operators.  People who are aware of the
> underlying technology, know its weaknesses and watch for those
> weaknesses.  Given that, I think the simple message passing mechanism
> works quite well.  I like Curt's idea of creating an enhanced messaging
> mechanism even more.  I've never played with UI-View, so I don't know
> what they do for message passing, Curt?

My argument against the messaging is simple:  It's not robust enough. 
And I disagree:  Most users are *NOT* aware of the limitations and 
weaknesses.  I offer that this group is unique or at least a step above 
the typical APRS-SIG user in at least that regard... perhaps others.

Use of a kludged pseudo-ACK messaging system is broken.  I strongly 
support adding a more robust messaging system to the list of features 
for xastir-2, and I'd suggest making it ip-based.  If we drive folks to 
use the KISS interface on the TNCs it's pretty straightforward to inject 
tcp/ip encapsulated in ax25... or as a pseudo-ethernet packet instead of 
  relying on the shortcomings of ax25 to make the connection!

>>If we need to be moving real messages across this system, we need to 
>>engender a real message system.  In my mind, and with the main thrust of 
>>this list originating from the *nix environs, this means sendmail or one 
>>of its (working) cousins.  So you send a message by means of an MTA and 
>>read it with a mail client.  Most of the grief of handling is taken care 
>>of for you, your users/customers are already familiar with e-mail, and 
>>printing and archiving are already considerations.
> 
> 
> This may be a real possibility.  The actual data size for most MTA is
> pretty small.  All we would really need to do is mark an original packet
> as mail and then spew out the MTA data.

AHA!  A convert!  I've said this time, and again, on the APRS sig.  The 
usual response, typically from someone misquoting APR at the same time, 
is that I don't understand how aprs works.

>>As Bob B. periodically reminds us, APRS was designed for tactical 
>>situational awareness.  Sometimes, when you try to enhance something too 
>>far, it stops working as you'd hoped.  We're using UI frames.  If we're 
>>gonna do messaging in an ECOM situation, the messages need to ge 
>>through.  They need _REAL_ acknowledgement.creating a UI ack mechanism 
>>on top of the APRS format for messaging is not a good solution.
> 
> 
> Your absolutely right here, the messages do need to get through.  I
> don't think the UI frame method is any less reliable than many voice
> nets I've monitored.  The advantage of a computer based ECOM structure
> is that you have automatic message logging!  People have extremely
> different approaches and abilities when it comes to keeping paper logs
> during an ECOM event; even then, paper logs are lost, destroyed, etc.
> It's extremely easy with computers to setup a simple backup mechanism,
> even if it only means keeping a copy on a hardrive and floppy.

My voice comms experience includes the Fort Worth, TX RACES nets when I 
was younger, as well as USAF  and NAVMARCORPS MARS.  We had pretty 
reliable voice comms there.  However, when I moved to Houston, and 
subsequently where I'm at now, the net discipline was considerably more 
lax and the results similarly affected.

>>Please note:  That rant is aimed at the idea of using a less than best 
>>effort messaging mechanism on what at best is a best effort radio 
>>network.  It's NOT aimed at Mark.
> 
> 
> No offense taken ;)  Likewise, with my rebuttal/comments I only intend
> to encourage out of the box thinking.

Sounds good!

73, gerry
-- 
Gerry Creager -- gerry.creager at tamu.edu
Network Engineering -- AATLT, Texas A&M University	
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020 FAX: 979.847.8578
Page: 979.228.0173
Office: 903A Eller Bldg, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843